Everything You Need to Know About Influencer Marketing with Renee Rodan: Strategies, Negotiation, and Building Authentic Brand Collaborations

This week we have Renee Rodan on the podcast to talk all things influencer marketing! In this episode you can expect to hear about;

• What is working in influencer marketing right now
• Renee's thoughts on gifted brand deals
• How to find the right influencer to work with
• Negotiating influencer deals 

Follow Renee: https://www.tiktok.com/@renreports
FREE How to Go Viral Checklist: https://tjcreative.myflodesk.com/howtogoviral

Chapters

• 0:00 Influencer Marketing Strategy Insights
• 13:33 Influencer Marketing and Brand Relationships
• 25:42 Influencer Marketing Strategies and Tips
• 32:34 Influencer Marketing Strategy and Budget Allocation
• 44:25 Influencer Marketing
• 49:38 Building Brands Through Long Form Content

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Have you ever wondered what goes into your favorite brand's digital marketing strategy?

Speaker 2: 0:04

I'm Tara, the founder of TJ Creative Agency and I'm Audrey, the creative marketing director of TJ Creative Agency. Whether you're an influencer, a business owner, a content creator or just an overall creative person, we'll teach you how to create the perfect social media strategy and build your brand online. Hi guys, welcome back to Social Sessions. It is just me, audrey, here for the intro, because we have another guest episode and I know I say this about all of our guests, but I am so excited for you guys to hear this episode. We have Renee Roden on. She is the head of partnerships at Open. She has 10 plus years of influencer marketing experience. She's worked at Vice Media. She's really done it all.

Speaker 2: 0:46

So, as you guys can guess, we have a long conversation about influencer marketing and it honestly might be one of my favorite conversations on this podcast. She is just a wealth of knowledge. We talk about mistakes that she sees business owners make when it comes to influencer marketing, kind of tips If you are new to influencer marketing. We talk about the pricing and kind of negotiation. We do talk about some tips for influencers, too right, about how to price yourself and how to pick the partnerships that you want and the businesses you want to work with. There is just so much information here. I really love this episode, so I want to keep this intro short and sweet so we can get right into it. So without further ado, please welcome Renee to Social Sessions Podcast. Thank you so much for being on, renee. If you could kind of give everybody a little overview of who you are, what you do, just like your little elevator pitch.

Speaker 1: 1:46

Love it, of course. Well, thank you so much for having me. I have been working in marketing and honestly, it feels like influencer marketing for like 10 years, so I feel like you become an expert over time and it also, having worked in the last three to four years specifically on influence marketing, social media growth and using influencers or working with influencers and content partners to really drive growth for a company, you really develop almost like a bullshit radar or I don't know. I feel like I'm come on the other side and I'm not illuminated by influencers and people with big followers and like almost like you know, when you live in LA, you don't really care about celebrities anymore. When you see you're sitting next to Nicole Kidman or something, I just feel like there's that and I really just I'm really specific on what I'm looking for, and so that's what I've been doing for the last few years, specifically living in LA, loving it and yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:48

Before? Were you always influencer marketing or did you do kind of like a different sector of marketing before you got into the influencer part?

Speaker 1: 2:56

Yeah, I worked in brand partnerships at Vice Media for a few years when it was really cool to work there. It was like my dream job at the time, yeah, um, and so I was kind of the middleman between the creative and the commercial side and the brands and signing on partners, and so that also helped me because I would take, just say, you know, a Kmart or maybe like a JetBlue and's like how do we take that campaign message that this brand wants to get across? And through the lens of Vice Media? And Vice was really strict on like their tone of voice, on who they work with, on understanding their audience, what their audience care about, and it was almost I thought it was like the hardest job in the world because they were so strict on how they were presented to the world. But that also just kind of comes into play later.

Speaker 1: 3:48

So I worked in brand partnerships. I worked at a startup in New York for a year, which is really fun in the hospitality space, um, and then you know, my role wasn't to do with influencers at all, but then it was like, okay, actually we need people to promote what we're doing. So all of a sudden you have to get back on the emails or get back on the DMs and start working with influencers. So they've woven their way in over the years.

Speaker 2: 4:12

I was going to say that brand partnership role sounds like it aligns heavily with influencer marketing, especially with what you were saying about like vice having their own kind of way that they wanted to be perceived and things like that. I feel like that happens a lot with influencers now. We actually just talked about this on an episode like a week or two ago, but how brands will sometimes give you you as in the influencer the most insane list of things. Make sure you hit these four talking points in the first 10 seconds of the video. This product needs to look and it's like the creator is no longer able to create content. They're just like a voice. You know what I mean, so it sounds really similar.

Speaker 1: 4:55

Yes, that is hitting so much right now. I put up a TikTok the other day saying what is going on with the influencer industry. I've just finished up a campaign. It completely flopped and that was a little bit of an exaggeration. I use that for a really big hook, but it was pretty bad in comparison to other influencer campaigns. I was like, guys, what's going on here? This is what I think, and the biggest complaint or the biggest issue that influencers, content creators, like everyone's having right now is the exactly what you said the briefs, the scripts, the restrictions, the constraints, the long list of do's and don'ts and, at the end of the day, it's like you. You go through all this effort to source an influencer like you have. You're like searching and you're using all your methods and then you find the person okay, this person's cool, I want to work with them and then you sign them on and then you're like don't be you, be us, say everything that you want to say.

Speaker 1: 5:52

And then everyone's like you know. And they're like, oh, you know, this gives me x grams of protein per food. And everyone's like what are you saying when you're like promoting a product? And that's yeah, yeah, exactly right. Like the do's and don'ts, and having worked in bias, like I was almost like hated the creative director or I hated the writers, because I was like just can't you do it, like you know, I'm going to get commissioned on this. Like I was like can't you just like get this over the line, like all you have to do is put in this one line, or like change the heading a bit. And they're like, no, and I didn't understand. And now I get it.

Speaker 2: 6:29

Yeah, okay, well, speaking of, because I actually I think this is an interesting topic because I think there was a time when that type of content did work right, when influencer marketing was newer, I think, more scripted content worked and and you know whatever and now it feels so inauthentic and so commercial. What have what have been some of the things that you've kind of noticed shift in the time that you've even worked in influencer marketing, like what used to work that doesn't work anymore, and and what are some things that you see working now?

Speaker 1: 7:03

Yeah, so one thing that's like come to my attention I think someone actually wrote this as a comment on the TikTok was people are becoming influencers to become an influencer and so they used to be the influencer where they would like. People didn't really know what they were doing, so someone would be like you know, sharing their life on YouTube through vlogs or like share. It was like much more authentic, where they were just like sharing their lives and like giving their own personal perspective, and we have been following them for like 15 years. You have a strong relationship with this person, like you feel like you know them you watch people in love and get married and have kids.

Speaker 1: 7:44

Like you feel like you know them. You watch people in love and get married and have kids, like you feel this connection with them. And now people like manufactured, almost like, feels like manufactured in a lab where they're trying to become influencers for the sake of me, influence that because you know you can get paid. You know 20k for a brand deal and everyone wants to do that. It sounds so easy, it's the dream and everyone. So that's like.

Speaker 1: 8:02

So that's like one big difference where it's like there's like almost the manufactured influences and then there's like the OG influences, um, and so that's one thing that I'm trying to suss out, because when you're working on the brand side and you're trying to find a good influencer to work with um, you you're looking up for the engagement and you're looking for, like how they if they have an, a community that's loyal and it's going to trust their recommendation, and so that's one of the things you're looking for is like how long have they been around? And like how? Like what are their story metrics? Or what are their engagement real, their real metrics, and how many comments do they have? Are they talking to the, the community. Are they keeping their highlights open, uh, like updated? Are they alive in a way? Are they living and breathing? And some people are doing that.

Speaker 1: 8:50

People like there's, like here are my links here, like you should see some people's link trees or like their link in bio it is the longest list I've ever seen and, and there's a lot of talk about being qvc tiktok, literally feeling like the q is that what it is?

Speaker 2: 9:06

the qvc shopping channel um, yeah, we I mean, we've talked about it on this podcast. It does feel like that sometimes, like every video, is someone trying to sell you something yeah.

Speaker 1: 9:17

So I think that's just like the, the people who become that versus who aren't that, and and then then it also I know this, this was another thing is around the rates and how. There's like just crazy rates for different people. And so, looking at the OG influencers who maybe have started 15 years ago, they have managers, and managers like you cannot do an in-feed post for less than $10,000. And this person has around 300,000 followers and I'm thinking that is I know, like I know the talent or the influencer loves the brand that I'm working on. We've spoken to her on the phone. She uses it organically, like it's a really good partnership, but her manager's like we will not do this, and so I'm like you're, you're losing out on something that could be authentic and you're following the money rather than following like you're nourishing or nurturing your community and nurturing your own brand in a way, and so that's. That's something else which I'm having a big issue with is like, like the, the rates and the like this is your standard rate over choosing partnerships that are authentic.

Speaker 1: 10:25

Someone commented on my TikTok. She has 2.8 million followers. I have her name, actually Samantha Houston, and she said I only do three to four brand deals a year and I was just like it's me praising her. Yes, that's crazy. Yes, that's what it should be like three to four brand deals.

Speaker 1: 10:46

Someone else said the influencer needs to become a brand and brands need to become content creators, and that blew my mind because I was like yes, the brands need to have more interesting content, more storytelling, more behind the scenes Like create all the content that you want the influence to create.

Speaker 1: 11:06

And the influence is just the additive, it's just like part of the story or like is more of a brand awareness. And so for me, being in the industry for so long, that shift from influences were there for brand awareness. You had a new product. You send it to them, they'd post about it, people, people would learn about it. It would be one of the touch points that helps convert to the sale at the end of the day. And now, with all the updates that you can do with these like trackable links and you can like buy directly from instagram, you can buy directly from tiktok it's become so conversion focused. So influencers are seen as sales people and when they're sales people, they're that's. We're only focusing on conversion, and that's another like shift I've seen which I'm thinking I need to almost come back to my roots. I've forgotten that they're there for brand awareness.

Speaker 2: 11:55

Yeah yeah, I have so many thoughts and so many questions on what you just said.

Speaker 2: 12:00

So, starting kind of with that conversion focus, we'll kind of work backwards.

Speaker 2: 12:05

That's something that I feel like I've seen a lot of conversation around, specifically from influencers and from brands actually, but kind of saying it's hard to get the exact ROI on an influencer campaign or some sort of collab or partnership with an influencer, just because sometimes these partnerships can be so evergreen, right, like we say it all the time like an influencer, just because sometimes these partnerships can be so evergreen, right Like we say it all the time like an influencer could post a video today with a product, especially if it's like a YouTube video or something like that Someone might not purchase the product until six months down the line, a year down the line, or like they might post this video, someone might save the video and then go back to it later. You know what I mean. Like there's so many different ways that that could be considered conversion that are much harder to track. So how much emphasis are you on the brand side like putting on that conversion or what are you tracking in order to kind of determine, like whether this partnership paid off for you?

Speaker 1: 13:06

Yeah, so we, um, we use, we give every influencer, uh, their own link and that link is trackable. So when someone it's actually a promo code, so you can use the code you know, audrey 30, and you'll get 30% off, for example, so we can actually track sales. We also ask them to put the link in bio and so you can see that also helps. But you always see a little push in the first 24 hours if it's good. We also have the survey that comes up when you are signing up for the product, because I've worked, probably, on an app. So when you download the app it's like how did you hear about us? So that onboarding survey and I know Duolingo also uses this to see the success of their TikTok and influencers is like how did you hear about us? And like that's a really good metric that we use to see the success.

Speaker 1: 13:56

And then you can also see like people ask like oh, I got like 500 clicks on my story and I said that's great, no one converted. I got like 500 clicks on my story and I said that's great, no one converted. That could also be an issue on the brand side that your landing page isn't converting, because I know a lot of influencers, like I, did my job. It's not my fault that they didn't want to buy your product because it was too expensive or this and that, but by the time hopefully by the time you're working with the influencer, you know your landing page works. You know your offer works, like you know. They shouldn't be the testers. You should have different, like you should have tested before.

Speaker 2: 14:31

I mean, that was mainly how are you tracking that conversion, Just because some of it can be almost delayed, right? Like? I do appreciate you saying, though, that like there is normally some sort of a jump in the first 24 hours that can kind of indicate you know how successful that is. I also wanted to touch on the idea of like brands becoming influencers or content creators. I love that idea. Do you think that's going to start happening? Like I've seen a little bit of a conversation around people thinking that influencer marketing is dying, right, and especially if brands start leaning into the content creation. Do you see that happening at all or do you think it's really a marketing tactic that's like going to stick around for a while?

Speaker 1: 15:16

Yeah, so it's so interesting. I think there's a big shift. I think influencers are getting sick of brands shoving these really strict briefs down their throats. Like they can be three or four pages. It can just take almost like the soul out of the person and they have to create this content because they've turned to influencer marketing as their full-time job. So I understand you like I don't want to come for influencers, but I think with TikTok everyone I know you guys talked about this on the podcast everyone's making a lot of money from TikTok shop.

Speaker 1: 15:51

So this one TikToker who has two million followers again stitched my TikTok and she was like the reason influencer marketing is dying is because brands don't want to pay and I'm guilty of that. I negotiate very hard and because I think it's like I know how many people are going to see this based on your analytics. I know what the likelihood of those people who see it will click on it and then convert. So we have like a calculator on the backend that we're using to estimate how many conversions we'll get. And so the influence is like I'm going to make more money from TikTok shop anyway, or I'm going to make more money selling my course or my workshop or my product, and so that's fine, like that's, you should do that. And so I think that's one of the big tension points is, like brands don't want to pay and and influencers are charging a lot and, with the economy, like a lot of people are saying, oh, we can't afford to buy every product right now. That's why these influencer campaigns are working. And then influencers are like, well, I need to be paid more because of the economy, and so there's this whole like push and pull going on. Yeah, then for brands becoming content creators, I think that's always kind of been happening on the side and I think the smart companies have been doing that, like I think about poppy the prebiotic drink having. Yeah, like they have this huge community on tiktok or duolingo, for example. That is entertaining to watch.

Speaker 1: 17:14

Brands are becoming media companies like everyone is basically competing for your attention and attention like is your economy of? Like how long can I have your attention for and how much can I build that relationship with you to ultimately sell my, sell my product? So I think that's definitely going to have to be the shift, because people are just getting so sick of these influencer briefs and I'm working on a campaign now and I'm just like I know when I send out the brief, the content I'm going to get back and it's going to be all the same. Like it will be someone doing a morning routine, opening the curtains, making their matcha, walking the dog, because it's part of the product. And I know I was like how do we all have the same morning routine? Like how do we all we're all doing a get ready with me. Like there's the ASMR people who will come back with a video. It's like because what, what we like or like, the algorithm boosts what we like. We all like get ready with me. We all like skincare, so we're all creating the same content so we get that engagement and I don't.

Speaker 1: 18:21

After a while it's just like boring and and you need to be different. Like being different will help you stand out, but it is scarier. It is much slower to grow. Like it is going to be a slow burn. You're going to have 10 000 followers for a few months. You're not going to get to a million. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 18:39

Yeah absolutely.

Speaker 2: 18:42

So, speaking on the idea that brands don't want to pay, it's always made sense to me, right, because at the end of the day it's a business. Right? Like you're not going to just start out with your highest rate possible. Right, you're going to lowball people, you're going to like you know whatever. But it brings me to gifting. Do you think that that still does much? Like I personally get gifted things and I'll post things, but I'm like this isn't going anywhere. Like I appreciate it, I'll take it. Like I'll take the free stuff, but like I cannot imagine from the brand side that's sending me these things, I'll take it. Like I'll take the free stuff, but like I cannot imagine from the brand side that's sending me these things, I can't imagine you're getting that much. You know what I mean. Like, and even even being on the influencer marketing sometimes, like I think sometimes, when a new product drops, I think, sure, gift things, but there's not a ton of return there from my perspective. But what do you think?

Speaker 1: 19:34

yeah, I mean, I honestly think that gifting will stay for sure. I think having the gift like being having the product in physical realm, actually using it, and actually that's where you can start the relationship with the brand I think it's not going anywhere. And I think people have been sick of unboxing videos um, a lot of. There's been this trend on tiktok where an influencer will go on holiday and they'll come back from vacation and they'll have like walls and walls of boxes and that just seems wasteful and unrealistic and it kind of makes people, doesn't make the audience feel very good because they're not getting gifted, they don't get any of this research how we meant to believe you. So I think that there needs to be more intentional gifting. I think things like an event or you know, in-person experiences like I went to the the rare beauty event when they launched their comfort collection and that was it was like the two days of influencer only events and everyone was there with their ring lights, with, like they were there to work. It was almost like you'd invited like 50 different tv networks who were coming and recording the launch of a new product and then after that, which I really like, which I feel like some companies don't do is they had a week of people who love red beauty, community members who aren't influencers, to come and experience the same thing. The only difference is that Selena Gomez didn't come. That's a big difference, but so they had the community members come in and that's a really nice way of being like not just the influencer gets to experience this in real life and you get to really walk into like the rare beauty house and get the whole experience and that makes a really big impact and you get to take something home.

Speaker 1: 21:21

So I think a shift towards intentional gifting rather than just like dropping off your product at a million different people's houses, having like a pr list and actually having a relationship with a person. So, for example, aloe yoga they their marketing is gifting. So much of their marketing influencer marketing is gifting and they have done this. They have like a personal concierge. So they'll be like audrey, do you? You know? Like you know, I know you're normally this size, but this runs a little bit small, so I think you should do this size. This color would look really good on you. Like, this is a new color of the season. That's crazy. Yeah, it's personal. It's not just like a drop shipping of something free and hoping that you'll get a post.

Speaker 1: 22:07

So I think taking the time to be more intentional, having a relationship with your audience, following up as well, like you'll send a gift and we're all too lazy to follow up. It's like how did you find it? What do you think? Like you don't have to come across as needy. There's no guarantee that they'll post, but at least they'll remember you. And again is part of the ultimate sales funnel If you have budget, if you have extra stock, send that gift to the right person. You DM them, them, check in on them, ask them for feedback. You're asking your community for feedback. I know hayley bieber did that with road, with her new face cream or something she like spoke. She sent it out to like some super fans and asked them for feedback. That's amazing. That feels like you're part of the brand instead of just having to be that salesperson at the end of the funnel yeah, I do love that you brought up the relationship aspect, because it's so true.

Speaker 2: 22:58

Even when I get emails myself of like how'd you like it? It does go a long way to be like have you run out of any of these things? Is it something that you find yourself using a lot? It is a way to make it feel more relationshipy than like transactional, which I think does go a long way in terms of of if they want to share the product of you know, if this partnership continues. That's so true. I think gifting probably is more of a way to foster a relationship than like necessarily get your name out there.

Speaker 1: 23:33

Yeah, and I think if you're gifting it to the right person I mean, if they're gifting it to you you have such a unique channel and audience and you have your own tone of voice. That is interesting. How can they work with you for something else? Maybe you introduce them to one of your clients. I don't know. We've become so transactional and we've forgotten about relationships and I know it takes more effort and you can't just send it out to like thousands of people, but I think it'll have like a like. It'll have better returns in the long run.

Speaker 2: 24:06

I also think like this is this is like a funny thing to talk about in a specifically influencer marketing episode, but, like, people forget about like networking and influencing in real life. You know what I mean. Like, like you said, you might send it out to someone who has like a best friend who's a really big influencer or who like runs some sort of a like in person group or something like that. Like there is, there is a way to influence and get people to buy your product without posting it online as well, you know yeah, I think summer Fridays does a really good job of that.

Speaker 1: 24:40

They are always sending free stuff to communities. There's one community it's called Canva app and they're in LA and they, maddie, love her. So what you're, what you should do this weekend, or like five things to do on the weekend that are free, and that kind of thing. So they, summer Fridays, would send them their jet lag mask and they would put it out at events and they would post about it and everyone who arrives, you know, gets a free Summer Friday. So, like they in a way, have, all they've done is sent their free product, but they have infiltrated an intimate event, an engaged community.

Speaker 1: 25:21

I've been like one of the best parts of the event just by giving their product. That's not like for it's not like a dollar product I think it retails for like 36 or 40 or something, something. So it was really special, and so I think infiltrating communities and being part of events, that actually will allow you to stand out. Having said that, I've had some gift bags that are so heavy and I'm sure you have as well that it's just like how many products are in here. It gets lost. I think the gift bag should be captured many products are in here, it gets lost.

Speaker 2: 25:58

I think the gift bag should be captured. There's a there's like a happy medium of like a handful of products where it's still meaningful, right, because, yeah, you see those people, especially if they like go to the oscars or like a big event like that, you ever see those like unboxing of the gift baskets there and it's like full size like this. Full size that, and I'm like this is equivalent to like what five children get for Christmas, like this is insane and it's in one box, but I do love yeah, I think using those events and I like that.

Speaker 2: 26:26

You said the word infiltrating communities, because that's exactly what it is and I think you're gonna get such a return there because there's already like a trust there and those types of especially like thinking of the camper events. Like the phones are out, people are taking videos, so you might like inadvertently get content put online. You know what I mean.

Speaker 1: 26:48

Yeah, and I think that doesn't happen overnight. I'm sure Summer Fridays and canberra, community leaders have meetings. I hope, like had meetings. They said, like what's coming up, how can we support? And hopefully, you know, I do think that I think that summer fridays probably didn't pay for that, because they're considered a very cool brand. I've got a lot of clout right now. But hopefully, like because that is really valuable, communities should ask for some sort of sponsorship and say, like you will get xyz, like you will be featured in our reels, which get engagement.

Speaker 1: 27:24

You know, that's something that I find really important is packaging it up, and I know that's like one of the trends that I'm seeing where influencer rates might be really high. But you need to think about your whole community or, like, everywhere you talk to your community Do you have a newsletter, do you have Instagram, do you have TikTok, youtube, do you have in-person events? Like, what are you doing? That you can package up your value to a brand and then you can actually make make like a solid, like a good amount of money. It's authentic, you're actually. You don't have to say yes to to five brand deals a month because you have this one that you're working with on multiple channels. So that's one thing that I really hope to see more of, and I just think people need to get smarter about how they are pitching themselves to brands yeah, I've.

Speaker 2: 28:15

We had a girl named Harley come on the podcast such a long time ago, but she talked very similarly about that of like creating packages. Instead of being like I'll do one in feed post for you, Like, why not do like an in feed post two stories and like a shout out on my newsletter and it's like a.

Speaker 2: 28:34

It makes the company feel like they're getting a deal and but there's, they kind of are because they are getting more channels or more mediums that you're, you know, showcasing their product on. And she also had talked about how you can make like a small, medium, large package just to give diversity, and she was like they're always going to choose the medium package, so give them some options where it feels like they are in control, but in reality, like you, as the influencer, made these packages and are giving them the options.

Speaker 1: 29:03

Oh, I love that I have gone for the medium package.

Speaker 2: 29:07

She got me. Yeah, she's like they're always going to choose the medium package.

Speaker 1: 29:12

Yes, it's so funny. Yeah, I think I love that small, medium and large package. And also, as you're growing your community, think about how you can diversify the channels because I, as a brand, I've seen huge ROI from email marketing and I know everyone does like that's something that everyone has seen. So if you have a community, start the sub stack, start the email. There's Beehive. There's so many ways that you can Beacons, have an email marketing platform. There's so many ways that you can do that email. It doesn't have to be every day or every week, it can be once a month. But growing that community can be like a huge revenue, like commercial driver for you.

Speaker 2: 29:56

Yeah, well, and it's such. I think email is overlooked a lot. This is a little bit of a sidebar, but it's so overlooked, especially on the influencer front, because I think when people think emails, they think promo, they think we have this new product launching, they think sales, and I think a lot of people are like, how do you do that as an influencer? And I think it's really not as hard as people think it is. It could be as simple, as I posted 15 links this month of Amazon links or like to know it links. These are the ones that you guys loved the most. Here's these. Here's a little update about myself. Here's my favorite product. It doesn't have to be anything crazy, but I agree I think it's a great selling point and something that could really like make you unique and stand out for the influencer or the influencer marketing people that you're talking to.

Speaker 1: 30:51

Yeah, I love that and I think it. Yeah, it helps you build a closer relationship with your audience. You talk to them in a different way. You curate all the content that you put out that week, like here are the top three. You also can can share things that you wouldn't normally share, like this is the podcast I'm listening to. Or, like you know, you can make it more interesting being like in my new newsletter I'm sharing something like really emotional that happened to me this week and I don't know, make it a little bit clickbaity.

Speaker 2: 31:18

It's almost like sharing something there that you're not sharing on the other platforms. Exactly, I do want to talk a little bit about like finding influencers that align with your brand, because, sadly, I do think there's still a lot of people that are like we're just going for follower count, that's it. What are you looking for typically when you are looking for an influencer to work with?

Speaker 1: 31:44

Yeah, so I we have broken it down into. There are two to three kind of categories that we look for. So there's someone like a brand builder who kind of aligns to your brand values. So if your value is fashion, music, arts, culture, that's a brand builder and they have a lot of followers. They're probably more macro, like over 250, they can have over a hundred thousand followers. It doesn't need to be that many, but you know that they're not actually going to convert because their audience follows them for their artistic liberation or like what they, what they they're very cool, but they're not exactly going to convert for your brand. But you know that it'll be one touch point and that they'll ultimately convert. So there's a brand builders on one side.

Speaker 1: 32:34

The second thing is the converter, and so people. I know that their audience is ready to purchase the product, and that's something also that I think brands get confused by. When they're looking for an influencer, it's who actually represents your audience and or no, sorry, when they're looking for an influencer, they'll look for people who they want to represent their brand and they might not look for people who will sell their brand. So there's two different ones. And when you're looking for people who will sell your brands. That's, a lot of the times, not always micro influencers who do really well, who have a small and engaged community and they can they convert. So it might not be someone that you would put on your instagram feed you know, this is someone who's a little bit left of center and but you, I know that their audience needs my product and so brands can sometimes get confused because they're like I don't want to work with that person, like that person doesn't fit our brand at all. Yes, I know, but that community is ready to purchase it.

Speaker 1: 33:37

So your goal of the campaign is conversions. Then you need to do that, but it's okay, cause you're going to offset that. You're not going to like diminish the quality of your brand or your brand equity or how you look to the consumer, because you also have the brand builders who are actually going to elevate your brand. Um, things like I'm always thinking like is this person a converter? Is this person a brand builder? And if they overlap, that's amazing, that's like the sweet spot. And if they do overlap, because you've tested it with the campaign, how can you do more? How can you dive deeper? How can you create a custom product with them, or a custom edit or something to make them feel more special because they're doing both. That's like almost your peak brand ambassador.

Speaker 2: 34:22

Yeah, when you are looking for people to work with. I know you had kind of mentioned like looking at their. You had talked about how sometimes there are people who essentially it looks like they blew up overnight. They don't necessarily have maybe the community there and you look back and it's like a lot of brand deals. Is that any sort of a red flag for you? Like, if you're looking through their profile and like three of the last nine posts are sponsored posts, is that a red flag for you at all?

Speaker 1: 34:59

it is. To be honest, it is a red flag. Yeah, it is, because you just, you just think from the audience's perspective. How many different products is the influencer trying to sell and what do they trust them? When I go on their profile, on the other hand, it's a bit of a gamble because it's like are they doing all these brand deals because they're working for a lot of brands, so maybe their audience is ready to buy from them and they look at them as almost like a shopping channel, you know. So are they the catalog you want to be part of or not? So I'm always testing you. You do take it into consideration.

Speaker 1: 35:39

When I saw that one influencer who had that link tree with around 30 links, I thought, hmm, this was my initial thinking. I think we can probably get a very big discount here because she works with a lot of brands. So she is down to, she's hungry for brand deals. So that was like I almost use that, as I didn't say that, but I use that as how I would count offer Cause I can say, hey, this person works with a lot of people. She's probably much more affordable than that influencer we spoke about earlier who's only has three to four brand deals a year. So I think it depends on what the influencer is trying to do as well. And then other things I look for is we always ask for story reach and you can see like just a screenshot of the last 30 days and from there you can work out like how many people will view your story and if you know they have low engagement or high engagement because you don't want to pay for a story post, if then their story is not going to get many views, it doesn't really make sense.

Speaker 1: 36:38

And then I look at their real engagement and that's honestly. There are calculators online where you can calculate engagement rate. We have an upfluence account and people use green or tribe and things like that. But honestly, after you've done it for a few years and the team you kind of just build a, you have a gut check and you can see how engaged their community is. So engagement is something I really would look for and follow. Count matters, you know, but I would honestly say like I wouldn't pay someone a base rate and base rate, for example, and not just affiliate payout, like not just give them affiliate link unless they had more than 50,000 followers. So I think like I've had someone who had 52,000 followers and she was in the top 10 of around 200 people that we worked with in terms of conversion for a campaign. She did so well and it was like her storytelling of her reel. It was her community, it was the right product fit and so that um. So that's why, yeah, follow account doesn't matter as much as it used to.

Speaker 2: 37:41

It's really about engagement and you know how loyal the community is to the influencer oh, I was surprised to hear that you said that a girl with 52 000 followers had like the best out of or in the top of everybody that you worked with. I am curious about kind of not negotiating, I guess, pricing more so because I know there's a lot of people listening to this who don't have the budgets of these like giant companies, right. So let's say they have a smaller amount that they can put towards influencer marketing. How would you kind of recommend that they kind of allocate that money? Would you say try and work with like one big influencer and build like a long-term partnership with them? Or would you say, work with like several micro influencers, like how would you kind of diversify that, assuming they have, you know, not a ton of money?

Speaker 1: 38:35

Yeah. So I think the biggest key to influencer marketing is always like testing and experimenting with people first. So I would never recommend being thinking, oh, this person you know, uh, she has 1.5 million followers, she hits all of our brand values, she's the perfect it girl for our brand, and then putting all your eggs in one basket if you haven't tried her first and it is expensive to try her. So you need to get a case that you know that someone like this will work and you have to go smaller. So I definitely think there's so much value in micro-influen influences. I always use affiliate marketing and giving kickbacks or commissions to sales.

Speaker 1: 39:21

I think it's a really good way to build an ambassador program.

Speaker 1: 39:24

Like I know, sakara, for example, have an ambassador program and those ambassadors can make between 500 to $10,000 a month sharing Sakara, depending on who they are, um, so that can be like a lot of value for an influencer, especially if they believe in the product.

Speaker 1: 39:43

So really, if you're tight on a budget on building your ambassador program where it's like I'm going to give you something for free and you can post, or I'm going to give you something for free plus a $50, $100, $200 base rate, so at least you're paying for their time, at least you know you can get good quality content. You can start small, because a lot of people want to break into the industry right now and they want that leg up. They want to build a case study and you can say I'll book you in for three videos over three months at $150 each. So the person knows they're going to get make $450 at the end of it. It doesn't just sound like $150. Like you know, you can kind of get smart about that and also say I'm also going to send you $200 worth of product. Or I know people are a bit like don't pay me with free stuff. They've kind of got that radar, but I do think it helps in negotiation for sure.

Speaker 2: 40:37

So I think adding micro influencers, our thoughts like, at least for us, a lot of our clients will have like really expensive, like we're talking upwards of like $30,000 for like the services that they provide. So in that case I'm like, yeah, we'll kind of do a trade-off. But I hear what a lot of these influencers are talking about. When it's like a $50 sunscreen, they're like, um no, I think it's very like case by case on how much the product or service is worth, you know.

Speaker 1: 41:08

Yeah, and I also think that it comes down to finding the right person.

Speaker 1: 41:13

So if the person doesn't see value in getting your product for free, they're probably not going to speak authentically about your product, it's not going to come through to their audience, their audience isn't going to care as much.

Speaker 1: 41:24

So it's almost a good way to filter out who's going to be a good advocate. For example, we have ambassadors who have around 200,000 followers on TikTok and they post for free because they're only getting commissions, but they're making like two and a half thousand dollars a month and that income is phenomenal. And so whenever like we just keep that going and sometimes you know we'll, we'll do more with them and we'll actually do like, let's actually do like three sponsored videos and like she gets like an actual influencer of partnership, but she genuinely loves the product. Her she wins by getting those commissions. Her audience love her for recommending a good product because her audience love it too, so it actually works. So I just think that's something to take into account. If the person doesn't want to do it or is interested in lowering their rates for a first time working together, then it's probably not the right person. You should move on.

Speaker 2: 42:20

That's so true. It is kind of a good indicator of like how interested in your product or your service they are right, Because if they're like not super excited to get it at all, then it's probably going to reflect in their content.

Speaker 1: 42:36

Yeah, and I also see that with larger influencers, because we've worked with people with millions of followers for a crazy rate for the same rate that I'd pay someone, someone with 3 million followers, I paid someone who has 200,000 followers and that's because the person with 3 million followers really loves the brand and she genuinely uses it and she wants to work with you and so you can get these amazing deals because you have a good product that that this person likes. So it also comes down to your product being good. Don't yeah, um, sorry, yeah your product being good. And coming back to that authentic relationship, like all we talk about influencer marketing and in briefs, is authenticity, authenticity, be authentic, come across authentic. Yeah, so actually, when you're finding the person and you're starting and you're negotiating, your rate, is it authentic? We say that these some people have and influencers I'm sure you know about this that f you right where it's like this is my rate for that and I I was like that's completely ridiculous. I'm seeing that you just don't want to work with us.

Speaker 2: 43:39

Okay, last kind of little section. I would love to just talk about some mistakes that you see from the brand side, of things like whether that be we talked about the really long briefs and the really long like scripts and things like that. But what are some things that you think brands are doing that are just not working in influencer marketing or things that you know business owners can avoid?

Speaker 1: 44:01

Yes. So I think, yeah, the biggest issue right now are the briefs that they're too long, too many restrictions, too many constraints. A lot of influencers feel like brands are telling them what to say and they are too scripted and it's honestly coming off as inauthentic and the audience is put off and the influencer sounds weird. Another thing is like the captions. They don't edit the caption for the influencer. I think that you can guide them and say you know, please add this link in bio. Like you know, can you answer these prompts? How does the product make you feel? How did you feel before this, after using the product and then at the end, put in the line about the offer, but just don't write it for them, because everyone's like this is just the like. It just feels too much like an ad and has gets the ick.

Speaker 1: 44:56

Um, another mistake is not giving the influencer more creative direction or creative freedom. A lot of influencers feel right now that they don't have any freedom to create content how they would create it on their channel, and so there's that tangent point where almost the brand has come in and basically created, directed, the whole thing. Um, yeah, brands, yeah, so they'll basically pick apart how the influencer is portraying themselves and they, ultimately the influencer, doesn't feel like themselves. So let the influencer be themselves, and it's hard to, especially if you're paying a lot of money.

Speaker 2: 45:32

It's like I don't want you to be yourself, you know, but you have to relinquish control, because that is the nature of influencer marketing from like the foundations, um and and you really have to like like we talked about that too like you, a, they're creative for a reason right, let them be creative but also like their audience knows them for a certain type of content. So so, when you ask them to create content that is nothing like their regularly produced content, their audience doesn't want it, right, because they're used to a certain either a get ready with me, or like a vlog, or whatever it is. If you ask them to go completely out of the norm, their audience is like this isn't what we subscribe to, like this isn't why we follow you yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 46:19

So I think coming back and letting them have creative freedom. I spoke to a brand the other day and I said, oh my god, like the briefs are killing me right now. And she's like we have two lines in our brief. It's like how did you feel and tag us kind of thing, and they still pay them.

Speaker 2: 46:37

Yeah, Like it. It doesn't need to be crazy, it can very much be like. I understand certain things Like maybe you want to use it for an ad and it's more of a like usage rise, whatever, like things like that. But for the most part, like if you just have like a few talking points like make sure you say the product's name, make sure you say what it does, why you like it, like that's pretty good to me.

Speaker 1: 47:00

Yeah, and I also want to say on usage rights I know we have to, we should wrap up, but I know there was a big shift where influencers found that they were like we know how much value we're giving you by giving you usage to our content. You know, you would normally have to pay a creative agency in production and it would cost like a hundred thousand dollars to create a TV ad and we're basically giving it to you for free. I'm not doing that anymore. But I also think that there's like so many shifts in the industry. It's like we like, yes, you should, you should have usage rights, you should have a rate for usage rights. But also, you've already made the content.

Speaker 1: 47:35

It's probably not going to go anywhere. Like if you're happy to give it to the brand for 30 days for a lower rate, take the money like it's not, it's not necessarily going to work for the brand. Like when we put paid spend behind it. It's not necessarily going to move the needle like we don't know. We're kind of gambling with it as well. So I think there, like, you can be protective of usage rights. But also I don't like. I don't think it's a huge deal and I'm seeing more AI videos being made from influencers. I don't know if you've seen this, as like people in their car talking about a product and it looks like a real person and it's AI and I'm just like guys. Ai is coming.

Speaker 2: 48:19

It's wild. I saw a video about that the other day. It's it's getting crazy, like not to sound like an old person, but it's getting crazy, and it's like harder to determine what's what's real and what's not. You know, like it's getting pretty good.

Speaker 1: 48:27

It's getting scary.

Speaker 2: 48:31

Yeah, we just talked about how YouTube is like requiring a tag now to be put on. If it's like ai generated um, which I haven't really seen that many other platforms do yet, I think it's gonna eventually get to the point where everybody is requiring it um just because it's like it really is hard to tell it's giving kate Middleton literally. I feel like, can we talk about that like it's, even when it's not AI? People think it's AI like nobody knows anymore nobody knows.

Speaker 1: 49:05

I mean, it was a weird video sitting alone on the bench, but the whole situation was weird. So I just was like let her.

Speaker 2: 49:13

Yeah, like nobody trusts anything online anymore. People are like no, that's fake. Obviously, that's clearly fake, even when it's like it could be the realest video you've ever seen. And there's going to be people on the internet that are like no, I can tell that this has been altered.

Speaker 1: 49:29

Yeah, yeah, people zoom in and build this whole case and all these conspiracy theories. Yeah, we don't know what to believe anymore.

Speaker 2: 49:37

Wild. Well, Renee, I loved this conversation. Where can everybody find you?

Speaker 1: 49:44

Uh, yeah, so I'm mainly on Tik TOK at Ren reports and hopefully we'll put that in the show notes and, yeah, you can follow along there. I'm also building my newsletter, so come along for the ride and I'm yeah, I think I'm moving away from short to short form content and I'm going to do more long form as well and I'm going to do like four part series and actually investigate a topic. So you know, we spoke about gifting. How can I actually get quotes from brands and quotes from influencers to hear their thoughts on gifting and actually get a well-rounded article on it in video form? So that's what will be coming.

Speaker 2: 50:21

I love that. That's such a good idea. Well, thank you so much. I feel like this was such an informative episode and I love kind of pulling back the curtain and giving that insight, especially from like larger brands right With like bigger budgets. So thank you so much for being on.

Speaker 1: 50:38

Thank you so much for having me. I had so much fun. I'll can't wait to hear and let me know if there's any feedback. And, yeah, hopefully we'll speak again soon.

Speaker 2: 50:46

Of course.